Jeff Garcia is the player in question.

GREENWAVE is FOR Garcia being a valuable fantasy QB this season
t_rob is AGAINST Garcia being a valuable fantasy QB this season

Do your best to convince us your side is the right one.

"He who has begun has half done. Dare to be wise; begin!"
--Horace

Garcia

1) Has a good supporting cast: Suggs looks like a very good running back. Morgan and Davis are serviceable WRs but the key I think to opening things up for Garcia will be the use of Winslow. He can be a nice target over the middle for Garcia and it should allow him to put up good numbers.

2) There are no worries that Garcia will lose his job if he starts poor. He is getting paid the money to play so I think as a fantasy owner knowing that if he has two bad games and that he will still play is important to how I want to run a team

3) Garcia has the ability to help your team not only through the air but his ability to score rushing TDs is important. These "extra" points came 7 times last year for Garcia, who finished as the 11th best fantasy QB. Not bad, someone I could see becoming a good performer for the Browns

4)I have checked 2 different ranking sites for the 2004 season and garcia is in the top 15-- top half of QBs-- in each of them -- reaching as high as number #7 at site with the other being at #13

and

5) This is from cnnsi's fantasy website talking about Jeff Garcia signing with Cleveland

"Still, we're talking about an experienced -- and for the most part successful -- NFL starter who will be playing alongside a fairly talented group of receivers. If you ask me, that'll make it mighty hard for fantasy owners to dismiss him out of hand come draft day."

Jeff Garcia is a gritty overachiver that stepped into 49er Legend Steve Young's shoes as a virtual unknown. He overcame all the doubt and all the scrutiny and carved out his own nitch in 9er lore. He is the kind of scrapper that the common man roots for. I like him... but...

He is a 34 year old quarterback on a new team, with a new system, and new players. He is leaving behind one of the most QB friendly offensive systems ever designed. He is leaving the comfort and safety of a very solid running game (Barlow/Hearst). He no longer has Terrell Owens' large frame, game-breaking ability and overall trust. He is also leaving a much better offensive line behind. He is going from a warm climate team to a cold team. He is leaving San Fransisco for Cleveland!

He now captains a team of kids that have a lot to prove before you can count on their production and now Garcia's as well. Lee Suggs has great potential but has a whopping twp NFL starts under his belt. Quincy Morgan and Andre Davis have upside but have yet to dazzle at this stage of their careers. Dennis Northcutt may or may not be the slot receiver. If he is he will be the most accomplished player on that O with Garcia. If not we will see Andre King and his 25 career receptions lining up in the slot. Kellen Winslow has all the tools to be the best in the biz. But he is a rookie with very high expectations. We all know that banking on rookies to make a big impact is dangerous.

Some numbers:
Quincy Morgan
40 Starts - 124Rec - 1912Yds - 12Tds
Andre Davis
12 Starts - 77Rec - 996Yds - 11Tds
Andre King
1 Start - 25Rec - 278Yds - 0Tds
?Dennis Northcutt?
21 Starts - 157Rec - 1963Yds - 7Tds
Lee Suggs
2 Career Starts and 4 games experience total

O-Line
LT Ross Verba
LG Kelvin Garmon
C Jeff Faine
RG Paul Zukauskas
RT Ryan Tucker

Ross Verba missed the entire regular season with a torn bicep. Otherwise this is the exact same unit that Butch Davis tried so vallantly to upgrade this offseason. They added no one of note.

Garcia sacked 21 out of 392 times = 5.4%
Rattay sacked 7 out of 118 times = 5.9%
49ers = 5.5% - 28 Sacks Allowed for 9th Place Ranking
Holcomb sacked 21 times out of 302 = 7%
Couch sacked 19 times out of 203 = 9.4%
Browns = 7.9% 40 Sacks Allowed for 19th Place Ranking

I realize Garcia is much more mobile than either Couch or Holcomb but he is 34. Are you really going to trust the wheels of a 34 year old. Not to mention why he is scrambling, who is going to come back to the ball or know where Garcia wants you to go? Think Lee Suggs has the game savvy to pick up the blitz or a rookie TE is going to run precise routes and aid in the blocking schemes proficiently?

Lastly for now, a look at Garcia's decline.
Since his monster year 2000, when he finished with a career high 97.6 QB rating, he has fallen in rating each year. 2001 he finished with 94.8 - 2002 he dropped down to 85.6 - and 2003 he ended his 9er career with an 80.1 QB rating (15th in the NFL).

This team simply has too many question marks to rely on Garcia as your fantasy starter. He is and should be ranked around the 15th slot and I won't argue that. I think most of leagues range in teams from 8-14. That makes Jeff a backup and he would be a damn good backup... but nothing more.

quote:

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Originally posted by GREENWAVE:
2) There are no worries that Garcia will lose his job if he starts poor. He is getting paid the money to play so I think as a fantasy owner knowing that if he has two bad games and that he will still play is important to how I want to run a team.

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I actually couldn't disagree more. We are talking about a 34 year old here. Not some rookie QB that needs to be handled gently in order to perserve his confidence and psyche. He is also not the QB of this teams future. So if he does struggle, Davis will not hesitate to insert Kelly Holcomb. Butch knows and trusts Kelly and will play him if he feels it will help the team.

I am not sure if I believe this will happen because I do think Garcia will play well enough to retain the job. But make no mistake about it, he struggles often and he sits.

Plus the latest talk has Tim Couch possibly staying in Cleveland. He too will be making money. Maybe Butch gives him time in an effort to generate some outside interest in him? I know, long shot, but the chance is there.

Lee Suggs-- Yes he has little experience but I bet you'll find on this board that more than 75% of us like him and think he will be a productive player.

Holcomb and Couch are not as mobile as Garcia is that is why he was sacked less. I mean does SF have a great line too??? No.

After T.O on the niners they had no proven WR. On the Browns even though they may not be as good as T.O. I think the conglomeration of Davis, King, Morgan and now WINSLOW will be a much better stable of pass catchers than the one GREAT WR he had in Owens.

New System-- somewhat,, i could be wrong but I think the Browns run a west coast offense which is similaiar to all the years that Garcia had under Mariucci.-- which brings up another point. Last year under a new coach and new offense -- way different system that does not fit his skills (erikson loves to throw it deep) garcia was still a productive QB. Now with a system better suited to his abilities he will return to his top 7 form.

Listen I like Jeff but really do not think anyone needs me to convince them he is not your starting QB. Like I said, I will give you 15. Maybe he finishes higher then that, but drafting him higher would be a mistake.

Tai Streets may actually be better or as good as Morgan/Davis but it doesn't really matter. Garcia could have a good year but there are too many surer things at QB to think about him as your starter.

As far as the Brown system, I really am not sure what they use. But I always thought it was more of a conventional one.

Re: the cold weather...

that only becomes a factor toward the end of the year maybe december... at the most 2 games at home. In San Fran though it is on the water and known for swirling winds as well so I don't think there is that much different.

Re: The recievers

Now Northcut is back, giving him another option to throw too. I remember Northcut two years ago against the steelers in the playoffs ripping them apart. He can play. Thats 3 WRs who can play and a TE who can catch.

Re: Banking on a Rookie

You say its dangerous...well maybe but Shockey came in and dominated and this guy is better than Shockey... so if he is used right (which Garcia will be able to do) then he will be another weapon to add to Garcia's stats

Re: Tim Couch

Well now Couch is filing a lawsuit against the Browns. Not a good omen if you want to be a player and starter for them. I doubt he will start giving more cushon to Garica's job.

Northcutt clearly helps this cause. But I still like 14 or so QB's more than him.

Peyton Manning
Daunte Culpepper
Matt Hasselbeck
Trent Green
Steve McNair
Donovan McNabb
Michael Vick
Chad Pennington
Tom Brady
Brett Favre
Aaron Brooks
Marc Bulger

Maybe:
Drew Bledsoe
Jake Plummer
Mark Brunell/Patrick Ramsey
Kerry Collins
Brad Johnson/Rich Gannon
Jake Delhomme

Heck maybe even these youngens with big upside:
Joey Harrington
Carson Palmer
Josh McNown
Byron Leftwich
David carr

Jeff Garcia has the potential to be a top ten fantasy QB. But I do not think many fantasy vets are going to go with him as their starter. Nuff said... next round.