Rudi Johnson is the player in question.

The Divine One is FOR Johnson being a valuable fantasy RB this season
t_rob is AGAINST Johnson being a valuable fantasy RB this season

Do your best to convince us your side is the right one.

"He who has begun has half done. Dare to be wise; begin!"
--Horace

Thanks Ten, I must of got the good coin flip. I think T-Rob has the tuff side. I feel the positives outway the negatives.

I feel barring injury, ? at Quarterback, and split carries to the Rook...Perry.

Rudi, Rudi, Rudi, should be penciled in for 1200 to 1500 total yards, 10+scores and be a solid number 2 back on your team and be rated in the 10 to 15 back range on draft day for this year.

Here are the issues on my reasoning. The coach, the division, talent, and of course the wild card of Rudi's future.

First off, the division...it might be the worst in the league. Cleveland and Pittsburgh have a lot of work and holes to fill. The Ravens will be tuff and are always tuff with Ray and co. but there offense will yet again be there achilles heel. The Nati is up and coming and will take this division. The offense is set and the "D" will only get better.

Mr. Lewis has installed faith and belief which is HUGE in the NFL. I really like the moves he has made and the coaching philosiphy he has installed. Draft, off/Def. the smooth transition of players. Nati is going to be good for awhile. This is a franchise on the rise and its because of Lewis's will and dedication.

Talent, this can be a double edged sword. This is not the Rams and Martz though so you don't have to worry. Marv will run the ball. He does not lose sight of its importance. If Carson struggles, Kitna is there waiting in the wings. Early I figure a little more running till Carson fully grasps his reads, later if Carson doesn't get benched more aggresive playcalling...does that mean less run? No, Im just saying they will go down the feild a little more. Having Kitna on the bench is a huge bonus.

Rudi's future. The NFL is ironic because of window's of oppurtunity. I don't hate Dillon and neither did Marv. He still gave D carries late in the season. Dillon was the name of Cincy for years, when they started winning and it wasn't because of him, it was hard to deal with, for him and anyone in that position. Everyone had there blinders off, except Dillon. The team played as a team hitting on all cylinder's. Dillon has moved on and so has the organization. Rudi signed a one year tender. Marv drafted Perry. Rudi will get pushed by Perry, get breathers and play for a multi million dollar contract. He knows, the team knows...all he has to do is perform and run hard like last year.

No matter what...this is a win, win for Rudi.

Rudi Johnson is a hard working back with ordinary skills and a mediocre career ahead of him. I am not buying into Rudi-Mania. And apparently am not alone. Marv and Co. originally said that locking RJ up long term was a top priority. Then came the one year offer followed by the drafting of RB Chris Perry in the first round.

They have not made a single long-term offer to Johnson. What does that tell you? It tells me that after reviewing film they have not been overly impressed with RJ's 2003 numbers.

Speaking of which lets take a peak:

215 for 957yds & 9TD's

Not bad but let's dig deeper...
He had four games where he broke the 100yd mark.
27 - 101 - 1TD vs. Seattle at home - Defense Ranked 14th against the run w/ 109.9/game
43 - 182 - 2TD vs. Houston at home - Defense Ranked 31st against run w/ 148.1/game
22 - 165 - 0TD - 54Yrd Lng vs. Kansas City at home - Defense Ranked 30th against run w/ 146.5/game
21 - 174 - 2TD - 49Yrd Lng vs. San Fransicso at home - Defense Ranked 9th against run w/ 105.6/game

All his impressive games came at home during Cincy wins. He torched the leagues 30th and 31st ranked run defenses. Fell a few yards below Seattle's average allotment. But torched a stout 49er run defense with the help of a 49 yard run. Two of the games he went big he broke long ones. Although impressive runs, not something I think you can expect from Johnson.

All this and the addition of a bad defense and a rookie signal caller and we're looking at a rough 4th year for Mr. J. Young QB's usaully mean 8 man boxes which obviously hurt running backs. Bad defenses usually mean playing from behind which equals less running.

As far as playing for a contract goes. He just did that. Now he will have to play for another contract while trying to match expectations that he has never experienced at this level. He is no longer an unknown. Then you add Chris Perry into the mix and I think RJ's numbers will disappoint. What if Rudi isn't the long term answer in Marvin Lewis' mind? Think he is going to want to get a good look at Chris Perry before the seasons over? I do.

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First off, the division...it might be the worst in the league. Cleveland and Pittsburgh have a lot of work and holes to fill. The Ravens will be tuff and are always tuff with Ray and co. but there offense will yet again be there achilles heel.

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These teams may not be Super Bowl bound in 04 but they each have good to decent defenses.
Ravens Overall 3rd - Rushing 6th
Steelers Overall 9th - Rushing 12th
Browns Overall 15th - Rushing 23rd

Overall I do not see this divsion being bad enough to really benefit a running game.

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Rudi's future. The NFL is ironic because of window's of oppurtunity.

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Funny how you mention opportunities, because this could be Chris Perry's opportunity at being a starting NFL RB. Much like the disgruntled Corey Dillon, we will see how well Rudi handles a guy breathing down his neck.

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If Carson struggles, Kitna is there waiting in the wings. Early I figure a little more running till Carson fully grasps his reads, later if Carson doesn't get benched more aggresive playcalling.

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Carson isn't going to be benched. Lewis made it clear Kitna is not the QB of this teams future. That means you don't jeopordize the confidence of your future. Palmer, in my opinion, will have to really struggle or get hurt for Kitna to go back under center. I mean REALLY struggle.

Not sure what that does for RJ but thought I would lend my opinion on that subject as well.

Not one, but 2 posts. I was hoping you would show the same class Tim Duncan did in losing to the Lakers...ok.

I won't even qoute you...smoke and mirror's, smoke and mirror's. You are not jumping on the nati bandwagon and thats ok...since you really don't have a choice in this debate.

First off, making coach assumptions when you didn't even Knock the praise I put on ol Marv give's you a disadvantage right off the go. I wouldn't even post that Kitna won't come in if Mr. Palmer is slinging wounded ducks. Why pay him that money as back up?

I haven't even broken out the Rudi stat's...because frankly...they let Dillon go. We are talking about this year. Dillon got let go because Rudi can carry the load for this YEAR. Period.

Smoke and mirror's...smoke and mirror's. Perry what? Perry who? Lets start a running back thats A...a rookie along with a second year quarterback and a rookie running back that has fumbling problems, NO and NO.

Perry might steal some carries...given. But I did not see any rebuttal to my opening praise of Rudi's stats for this year. And as far as ordinary talent goes...I can name 15 running backs that have more talent then a guy named...E. Smith, but he HAS the rushing title.

Love debates, you got dealt a cruel hand T-Rob. It is yet a late night, and I am tired. I will end this debate with this closing paragraph.

Smoke and mirror's, smoke and mirror's. 75% of your agrument is on Chris. At this point and time...May 18th 2:30 am consider drafting Chris Perry ahead of Rudi Johnson.

Hell no, no way, not gonna do it, maybe I will put it on the calls of a lifetime.

This is about Rudi not Marv. I am not going to argue against Lewis because this isn't a Lewis topic. Smoke and Mirrors, you say, I'm not even going to show Rudi's stats, you say. That is because his stats are not that special.

There faith and trust in Johnson's ability and long term effect on the team is very low. How else do you explain not offering your "stud" 24 year old back a long term deal? Who was the last "stud" UFA, 25 year old back? Then they really clouded RJ's future by spending a first round selection on RB Chris Perry. Make no mistake about it, Perry is not depth. You can get depth in the 4th round.

How in the world Rudi draws comparisons to Emmitt Smith, I do not know. But now that he was brought up... remember Troy Hambrick. Yeah the joke of a back who just signed on with Oakland. In 2001 Hambone put up some good numbers alongside Emmitt.

Troy Hambrick - 113 Rushes for 579 Yards a 5.1 Ave & 2TDs

Two years later he gets the job after replacing a team legend (much like RJ). Then goes onto struggle horribly and is on a different team the following year.

Bad comparsion you say... why? A lot of people really like Hambrick, just like Johnson. Also they didn't "let Dillon go." He basically quit on the team and left them no choice but to rid the team of him.

In a redraft league I like RJ between the 16-21 range, give or take a few spots. In a keeper/dynasty league I do not like RJ at all. I think his new chant should be sell, sell, sell not the Rudi one.

Your dude lived off three big games. Two of which were against the 30th & 31st ranked rush defenses. Write Rudi Johnson's name down somewhere, cause in a couple of years you will no idea who he is!

Show me some numbers that would lead me (us) to believe otherwise!

Well, I figured I would not have to post again, and after reading your last rebuttal, which is solely on the future of Rudi and not this year...I am at a loss.

Stats, well...your mentioned 215 for 900++yards and 9 tds for your ordinary back is pretty darn good.

My reference to Mr. Smith was that although there are a lot of backs with a lot more talent then little ol Rudi. He produce's, runs hard, breaks tackles, picks up pass protection, well liked in the locker room. The little train that could...so to speak.

As far as making this personnel and Rudi being my "dude". Our debate was Rudi for this season and not bringing in other threads.

Nati will be fine, Marv has the direction of the team. Rudi is a part of it and he knows what he has to do. He shined marvelously with all the Dillon hoopla and they are close friends.

I honestly feel bad for you if you have Rudi pegged in the 16-21 range...given a couple spots as you said...would break into the top 15. I wouldn't shy away in dynasty either because...A. Lets not put the horse before the cart. Rudi has his year...Nati can either resign him or he gets to test the market. Let the off-season next year take care of itself. You never know, Rudi could be teaching Hambrick next year how not to fall down after 3 yards. There is a lot of teams, even this year that would take Rudi if they could.

Im sorry if I sound passionate about Rudi and you think we are room mates. But the whole point of this debate was to make people believe Rudi is worthwhile. I believe he is.

I'm not making it personal "roommate." I said your "dude," because right now he is your dude in this debate.

You just keep talking about what a great coach Marv Lewis is and how "Nati" is gonna be fine. But my question is what the hell does that have to do with a Rudi Johnson debate?

You have done no research and have shown nothing other than your opinion's here. Why the heck did you think you wouldn't have to post again. Because D.O. says Rudi, Marv and Nati are gonne be alright we should all draft him as a feature back.

Lets see these two stat lines again:
43 - 182 - 2TD vs. Houston at home - Defense Ranked 31st against run w/ 148.1/game

22 - 165 - 0TD - 54Yrd Lng vs. Kansas City at home - Defense Ranked 30th against run w/ 146.5/game

Rudi racked up 347 yards in two games against the leagues worst run defenses. Take those two games away and Troy Hambrick looked better in 2001.

As far as 16-21 range being sorry. Where do you have him? ESPN's got him at 16, right below Dillon. But no way am I putting Travis Henry or Tiki Barber behind him. Then there are some guys like Mike Bennett, Marcel Shipp and Lee Suggs that I personally rank higher.

Why did they draft Chris Perry in round one? Why have they not offered Johnson a longterm contract? The answer to those simple questions are one in the same. They DO NOT believe in Rudi. They have had him for three years. No team in the league knows Rudi like they do, and, plain and simple, they aren't that impressed.

I never made this personal bro. If it sounds like it that is because it is my job to tarnish Johnson's image. But I would appreciate you actually doing some research to back your beliefs if we ever debate again. I spend some time on this and would appreciate my opponent doing the same.

Ok, back to business. Being a good debater, is not all about stats. If I have to print up the bengals stats last year and do a game by game for each one I will. Since that is all we have to go on and one of your big factors in this debate. Seeing a stat can be nice, but seeing games is also important. I watched atleast 5 games with Rudi at the helm, give or take one. I could say more but I would be lieing.

As far as more stats, I am waiting for the Chris Perry stats, but as we know he as started less then Rudi's 8 games and we have nothing to go on but speculation.

Why did Marv and co. only sign Rudi to one year and draft Perry. Why did the Rams draft Jackson. Great move by Marv. Got the back up running back, moved down spots and still loaded up the roster. It was a weak running back class and that late in the round the backs started coming off the board. Perry was a tweener. On a lot of boards he wasn't even projected in the first round. The free agent running backs this year are crapola.

It was also a great move because if Rudi tanks or has his good year, they have somebody to learn the ropes for a year. That is the why, no matter how good you think you are, you cover your Ass.

Some of these comments you might think goes in your favor, but I am just stating the obvious.

I could break out the draft list and break down the picks, just like the stats, but thats getting a little crazy.

Is Nati sold on Rudi...NO...Do they believe in him...Yes. Thats really what it comes down too.

There are plenty of teams that sign a player to a one year tender, knowing full in well because of contracts the following year or at present time fit the cap constriats. It does not mean they won't sign him the following year or through the year.

On those backs you mentioned, the only one I would take ahead of Rudi, is Marcell Shipp. I have big question marks on Henry and I really like Willis. Barber and Suggs...ouchy! I wouldn't trade there whole offensive lines combined for Leonard Davis. I hear ya, different subject.

Later Roomy

Here's that game log you were talikng about.

Week 4 @CLE W 21-14 (Rush-D Rnk #23)
15Ru 51Yds 3.4Ave 11Lng 0Td 4Rec 11Yds 2.8Ave

Week 5 @BUF L 22-16 (OT) (Rush-D Rnk #8)
20Ru 69Yds 3.5Ave 16Lng 1Td 1Rec 10Yds

Week 8 SEA W 27-24 (Rush-D Rnk #14)
27Ru 101Yds 3.7Ave 18Lng 1Td 2Rec 16Yds

Week 10 HOU W 34-27 (Rush-D Rnk #31)
43Rec 182Yds 4.2Ave 21Lng 2Tds 2Rec 18Yds

Week 11 KC W 24-19 (Rush-D Rnk #30)
22Rec 165Yds 7.5Ave 54Lng 0Tds 2Rec 12Yds

Week 12 @SD W 34-27 (Rush-D Rnk #25)
17Ru 55Yds 3.2Ave 15Lng 0Tds 2Rec 21Yds

Week 13 @PIT W 24-20 (Rush-D Rnk #12)
10Ru 29Yds 2.9Ave 15Lng 0Tds 1Rec 4Yds

Week 15 SF W 41-38 (Rush-D Rnk #9)
21Ru 174Yds 8.3Ave 49Lng 2Tds 2Rec 8Yds

Week 16 @STL L 27-10 (Rush-D Rnk #20)
11Ru 30Yds 2.7Ave 16Lng 0Tds 2Rec 17Yds

Week 17 CLE L 22-14 (Rush-D Rnk #23)
14Ru 52Yds 3.7Ave 13Lng 2Tds 2Rec 25Yds

After reviewing Rudi's numbers a little more closely it's easy to see why the Stripes are not sold on him. Take away the two averages that I bolded and he had a 3.4 average in games that he got at least 10 carries. What was that about RJ teaching Hambone how not to fall down after three yards?!

Also worthy of note, is Rudi's numbers vs. the divisions best defense. 7Ru 15Yds 1Rec 4yds is all he got in both games combined against the Ravens.

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Originally posted by The Divine One:
Why did Marv and co. only sign Rudi to one year and draft Perry. Why did the Rams draft Jackson. Great move by Marv. Got the back up running back, moved down spots and still loaded up the roster. It was a weak running back class and that late in the round the backs started coming off the board.

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Chris Perry went 26. He was the 2nd back chosen, two spots after Jackson (24). Backs weren't coming off the board until Marv grabbed Perry. This wasn't really a value pick as they say, Stripes have a lot needs. They could have and maybe should have went with a different position. And then came back to RB depth in Round four or five. But they didn't... wonder why?

Why did Martz take Jackson? That's a silly question and comparison. But I'll tell yah anyway. Two reasons: First, Martz doesn't even know he has a defense. Ask him what a Linebacker is and he'll start talking to you about his phone bill. Second, Marshall Faulk is fifty years old and has proven year after year that he will break down.

Rudi is 24 himself. So why does he need a young guy to groom behind him? First round running back plus one year tender and a splash of 3.4ave = a #3 RB at best.

I'm telling you boys, draft him high and you're going to be dissappointed!

As a member of the Bengal Nation down here in the Nati, I can tell you not to draft Rudi any higher than 15. he is going to be splitting carries all year. he is a good running back, but will only get about 12 touches a game. This is Warricks last year of the contract and with Chad coming on, Palmer's gonna be throwing alot.

Hey Fantasy land. This is a debate between T-Rob and I. I know you are new its ok. Just read some of the posts...Ten Times has set up a thread for debates...check it out...Young Trout.

Ok T-Rob. Lets look a little deeper then your game log's and the Rush D.

First off, 5/13. What does that stand for? 5 games out of 13 started. He was the starting running back in only 5 games.

138-541 3.0 and 2 TD's...Are the stats of Dillon. That is what he went for and what Rudi can soak up. Thats in 11 games started.

43 Carries against Houston. Broke Dillon's club record of 39.

Nati was 4-0 when Rudi went over 100 yards. Not bad considering he started 5 only and Nati's record was 8-8.

2003 Situational game log stats;
Att. Yards AVG. Lg. TDs 1st
Ahead 1-8 points 73 420 5.8 54 2 18
Ahead 9-16 pts 21 85 4.0 16 - 6
Ahead 94 505 5.4 54 2 24
Behind 9-16 67 244 3.6 18 6 17
Behind 1-8 2 6 3.0 5 - -
Behind 73 270 3.7 18 6 19

Also 1sr Quarter logged rushes...44 for 167 with a 3.8 AVG...that is his lowest quarter avg...It goes up in ALL other quarters. Thats what happens getting stuck behind a cry baby, and you can't get your flow on.

Stud running backs get better as the game goes on, and Rudi does.

All those Rumors coming out of Dallas this last year about the Dillon trade, came because the year before last it was said that Dallas wanted to trade for none other then Rudi Johnson and Cincy wouldn't give him up.

Also to note, Rudi wasn't worried about the long term deal. He wanted to get to camp. Rudi was a restricted free agent, if anybody offered him a sheet...it would of cost a 1st and 3rd round pick. Nati rewarded Rudi with a 1.8 million dollor tender, which is the highest his restriction could recieve. Nati has also said that, if Rudi has the year they perceive him to have, they will have no problem putting the Franchise transition tag on him next year. Which can be a one year tender again and work in the season for the long haul. Which it most likely wont come to that. Don't be surprised to see Rudi get locked up long term half way through the season for a multi-year deal with less cash.

Barring injury, I don't see Rudi not hitting the numbers I speculated in my very first post.

Bottom Line:

Take away weeks 11 and 15 and RJ averaged 3.4yds per carry in games he got the ball at least ten times. Troy Hambrick averaged 3.5yds!

He is 24 yet only received a one year tender. Rudi wasn't happy about this. You're just being silly by saying so. And no teams wants to use it's franchise tag ever. It is a last reason tool.

Bengals spent a first round pick on Chris Perry. Why waste such a high pick when you have other pressing needs? To lock up a different 24 year old and let this rook rot like Lamont Jordan? This may come down to economics. If Rudi's price is too high they will just rock with Perry.

He is a shaky number two but solid number three fantasy running back. That's it!

First of all, you can't take games away from a player, thats what they accomplished. Against KC he was the starter and against SF in week 15 he wasn't the starter, and still racked up over 170.

I am not being silly about Rudi and him being upset, you can see for yourself and hit the Nate Pressroom.

Teams use the franchise tag all the time. There is a player by the name of Ogunleyle in Miami thats gonna get a big pay day off of one year of service and there were teams still taking him with 1 and 3rd compisation, and for that fact are still interested.

Im curious what other pressing needs the Bengals have, with the 26th pick. No impact players left on the board. The offense is set and Marv went all D. Perry is insurance.