Terrell Owens is the player in question.

Glassman is FOR Owens being a valuable fantasy WR this season
Crazy Carl is AGAINST Owens being a valuable fantasy WR this season

Do your best to convince us your side is the right one.

"He who has begun has half done. Dare to be wise; begin!"
--Horace

This message has been edited. Last edited by: TenTimes,

I guess I will get ours going CC.

Owens is a big time talent. He is arguably the best receiver in the league on a weekly basis. So he goes to a team where the passing attack has been pathetic. He immediately improves that 10 times over. The other thing you here is McNabb spreads the ball too much. You would too if you had a bunch of #3 receivers on your team.

Owens immediately becomes McNabb's #1 target. The days of him passing to 10 different receivers will go away with Owens there. Owens has proven in SF that he really doesn't need too much help from the other receiver to take pressure off him (good thing). He has consistantly beat double coverage throughout his career.

The one final thing I really think works in his favor is that McNabb can escape and give himself more time to find Owens. It is hard enough to cover guys like Owens, Moss and Holt when you only have to stick with them for a few seconds. Given the extra time McNabb will create can only be a plus.

He is going to go through some growing pains in the new system, but I don't think that will last more than a couple games. I don't think anybody would argue that this guy is a top 5 talent at WR. Whether he puts up those kind of numbers we will have to wait and see. I do think that just his talent alone will keep him in the top 10 receivers in the league though, possibly even top 5.

The "Post A Reply" window froze after I had about three LONG paragraphs so I'll have to rework a post after I get done smashing things because I'm so pissed off.

For now on I'm working in Works and then copying over... god that was about 40mins a work on that too!!!!!!

T.O., you either love him or you hate him… or you love to hate him. 6’3” tall and 226lbs he is the prototype for WR. And if the NFL was played in a computer or by robots he would me. But the NFL is played in the real world by human beings and that is why you should avoid Owens on draft day.
To get cliché, Owens is a cancer. We all saw his tantrums last year. Screaming at coaches and teammates! Placing blame for losses on anyone and everyone but himself. These things wear on his teammates and coaches and eventually destroy the team.
But you may asking, why these problems would follow T.O. across the country to the City of Brotherly Love? Well thanks for asking. To answer this let us look at what the complaints Owens had were in SF.
First major complaint was about the QB. He felt that Garcia scrambled too often and was not a very good passer. (Which is why he wanted Rattay who would sit in the pocket and throw in rhythm.) Well Mr. Owens, welcome to the Eagles and Donavon McNabb! Garcia ran 72, 72, 73, & 56 times in the last four years and McNabb ran 86,82,63,71 times. But remember that Garcia was injured most of last year and only played in 13 games or he would have been at his 70+ mark again. So Owens is still going to have to deal with his QB tucking the ball down quite often. Now to the bigger problem and that is Owens complaints about Garcia as a passer. McNabb is not even close to the passer that Garcia is. McNabb has a career completion percentage of 57% with his best year being 2002 when he completed 58.4%. Garcia has only completed less than 60% of his passes ONCE and that was last year when as mentioned he played hurt all year. Garcia is a career 61.4% passer! The other knock Owens had was that Garcia didn’t have the arm strength to throw down the field… well we all saw McNabb trying to throw deep last year and is was pretty ugly. So for the first of Owens gripes we see that the problem will actually be WORSE here in Philly, not better.
The second major complaint is that the ball was spread around too much in SF and that Owens should be the #1 target on… well… I think Owens would say on every play. Again, the problem will only be worse in Philly. The Eagles dink and dunk (again remember McNabb’s inaccuracy downfield) using lots of screens that often have a RB, not a WR, as the main target. You can say that Philly will change their offense for TO but they haven’t changed anything to accommodate anyone lately and I see no proof that Reid will do so now. Speculation and hope are not the things to rest high draft picks on.
So what we see developing is that the problems that will anger Owens and cause his tantrums to start are also reasons to be greatly concerned about drafting Owens in the first place. Owens has been spoiled playing in the highly potent SF offense and will now be moving to a defensive oriented team. His TD totals are all but guaranteed to drop simply because the team he is on will not be scoring near as often. Avoid all the risk that comes from taking a 34yr old WR that just changed teams and get some security with those high round picks.

I won't argue that he is not a first rounder, or maybe even a second.

But lets talk about the Eagles and Reid not changing. He has wanted to implement more of a passing offense. He has drafted WR early year after year hoping to get a passing attack built. He just has drafted all flops.

With young corp of running backs, this will be the season you see Reid finally go to more of a passing offense. A good receiver, which whether you like TO or not, is one of the best, will make an average passing qb look pretty good (see Marc Bulger).

The argument for the last 3 years now is Philly would have made it to the Superbowl if they would just had a good WR. Well, now they have a PROVEN receiver that they know can get open and have the confidence to go to.

Has TO been a cancer??? YES. Has he complained about everything under the sun??? YES. Has his work ethic ever changed??? NO. You talk to anybody around the game and they say that this guy simply works harder than any other WR in the game. Even with the problems in SF, he was still the hardest working guy in practice from everything that you read about him.

Is the Cancer and the complaining curable??? YES. Winning cures alot of things in sports. Jim Edmonds was considered a huge Cancer with the Aneheim Angels, but once traded St. Louis, he has been one of the team leaders and most liked players on the team.

So, do you want TO to be your team leader?? Probably not. But his work ethic he brings can only be a good thing for the young and so far, under achieving receivers to see and learn from.

So, come draft day, if you have one of the best talents in the game at WR staring at you in the late second or third round, you have to take him. He is just to good not to put up better numbers than all but a handful of receivers in the league even with a fairly inaccurate QB. Like I said earlier, good receivers tend to make average passers look pretty dang good.

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So, come draft day, if you have one of the best talents in the game at WR staring at you in the late second or third round, you have to take him.

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For argument sakes, lets ignore what I said there about third round. If he is there in the second round, you have to take one of the best talents in the game. He is still a top 4 talent playing on a Superbowl contending team.

You can speculate that Reid has been trying to build a passing offense, but you don't have any proof of it. Baltimore has drafted WRs early in the last few years but I wouldn't say they were trying to build a passing offense. Even a dink-dunk O needs WRs. Reid has been able to get the the Championship game three straight years using his system. An upgrade at the talent of WR is what Reid wants, not a new system. Reid is coaching a team, not just an offense. The Eagles are a defensive oriented team and the best offense for that type of team is a slow moving time eating dink-dunk offense. On top of that consider the passing numbers I stated on McNabb... they don't have a QB capable of leading a downfield passing attack that would make Owens an elite WR.

As for "winning will cure the cancer"... I've already detailed why it won't. Winning does not appease Owens, winning by throwing to Owens is the only thing that keeps him happy. And his touches will be limited more than ever in his career since he pused Rice out of SF.

If you take Owens anywhere before the 3rd round you are passing on much better talent. The top WRs are deeper now and Holt, Harrison, Moss, Chad, Ward, and possibly others all should go before Owens. They had better numbers than him last year, and with the possible exception of Chad, are in identical sitations ready to duplicate those numbers again.

I won't argue that Owens should ever go before Moss, Harrison and Holt. That would be rediculous

With that being said, Chad Johnson's numbers could be anywhere with Palmer in. He is a huge question mark this year. A slow start for Maddox and Ben steps in, the same could be said for Ward. Plus, if Burress ever decides to play up to his talent, Ward's numbers will suffer.

Along with a couple other receivers that could put up better numbers than Owens, I still take the talent. Owens has proven he can produce in single or double coverage, and can simply take over games. Other than the top 3, he is the only receiver you can say that about.

We could argue all we want about the cancer issure, but the simple fact is, if this team is running with only a couple of losses, Owens isn't going to be complaining. Yes he wants his numbers, but he also wants a shot at the championship to put a stamp that he is an elite receiver.

After the top 3, I think there is a group of 3 or 4 receivers that could fill in the last to spots of the top 5. Of them I am not sure you can say any of them are anymore of a question mark than Owens, where you know he is going to be the primary target in that offense.

The offensive numbers between the two passing attacks really is not that different, other than attempts.

Rattay and Garcia combined for an average of 6.98 yards per reception. McNabb is right there with them at 6.78.

As far as accuracy goes, it kind of suprised me a little, but Rattay and Garcia threw the ball to Owens a total of 146 times. That is quite a few throws to only complete 80 of them to a very sure handed receiver. That comes up to only a 54.7% completion rate to him.

Just a side note, You don't have to worry about losing points by fumbles either. Since 2001 he has fumbled exactly 0 times with 273 receptions in that time span.

If only Tiki could do that.

quote:

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Originally posted by Glassman:
We could argue all we want about the cancer issure, but the simple fact is, if this team is running with only a couple of losses, Owens isn't going to be complaining...
where you know [Owens] is going to be the primary target in that offense.

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Why would things be different in Philly than in SF? Owens complained after wins in SF about the coaching staffs play calling and about Garcia not throwing him the ball. Winning does not satisfy Owens and you haven't given me anything to believe Owens will suddenly be content to win and not get the ball.
As for Owens being the primary target... sure he will likely lead the team in catches but he will not approach the 90+ catch mark and I would be very suprised to see him with more than 8 TDs.
So why pass on the RB talent and possibly other WR talent that will be available in the 1st and 2nd round for Owens? He is 34yrs old, just changed teams with a big downgrade in the passing of the QB. And he suffered from dropping for too many passes last year which could be a sign of things to come as he is getting older.

That is where are argument is different. McNabb has had to spread the ball out because he has never had a receiver that could get open. Owens finally gives him that guy that he knows more times than not he will be open, double covered or not.

I just don't see a talent as good as him suffering from changing teams. Coles is not as good of a receiver as Owens and he did quite well in his first year.

In my closing statement, I will stand by what I said. The numbers are not that different between McNabb and Garcia as far as YPR and completion %. With Owens there, he will get the bulk of the balls thrown his way, which leads me to believe he will easily get 80-100 catches and well over 1000 yards and near double digit TDs.

When the best arguement for Owens is that he is a late second round pick... nothing else needs to be said about why you should avoid him on draft day.

Glass, I was excited when I saw I had matched with you because I expected a really good debate. But with all due respect you never really put up much of a challenge on Owens behalf. I assume you don't really like Owens going into next year and had a hard time arguing for him???

Carl, I did my best to make a case that this guy deserved to be #4 on the WR, but it was a tough sell. I like taking the more challenging side, but this was an uphill battle I just couldn't beat. With the talent elevated around him like Ward and Chad Johnson, he is a huge risk to take early.

I figured I was in trouble when I saw you opposite of me. Nice job, though I don't think you would have had to work too hard against anybody in this argument.

With all that being said, his talent alone could take him into the top 3 receivers again, but I don't think you can go into draft day expecting that at this point.