Marcel Shipp is the player in question.

Sportz Genius is FOR M. Shipp being a valuable fantasy RB this season
RUN HARD is AGAINST M. Shipp being a valuable fantasy RB this season

Do your best to convince us your side is the right one.

Once D. Green quits playing mind games with the media and naming a new starting RB every week we'll all see why Shipp is a no brainer to be a solid #2 fantasy back.

Shipp is a double threat with great hands. With limited playing time he was able to land over 30+ catches the last 3 years and two 800+ yard seasons on the ground.
2003 he had 1,014 net yards (11 starts)
2002 he had 1,247 net yards (6 starts)

With 14-16 starts he's a lock for a 1400+ yards.

Other reasons that Shipp will be a succesful back is the much improved WR core. Boldin is a real threat and should be who most D's key on. With Bouldin and Fitzgerald out there it should open up the running game a bit also.

And lets not forget about the schedule. The cards get to face St. Louis (16th), SF(13th) and Sea (19)twice each. All will have ave to sub average defenses. Other soft D's they get to face -
ATL, 32nd
NO, 18th
GIANTS 22nd
Jets 21
DET 24th

That's 9 games that ARI will face with Defenses in the bottom half of the league. 11 if you consider SF soft.

Marcell Shipp has very little value THIS season and should not be a TOP 3 RB on anyone's roster. There are WAY too many question marks for this guy to be considered a valuable RB.

Here are the simple facts;

A. He is NOT a leader. On a VERY young offensive team, he should be looked upon as one of the leaders...instead he is a project. He has had many opportunities to become a leader and take the starting role but has failed to do so. Playing in AZ, he has had many opportunities to prove he can be a valuable RB, but has not shown the leadership or motivation to do so. Troy Hambrick has able to dethrown Emmitt in BIG D (where Emmitt was VERY popular)...Shipp can't beat out an even older Emmitt to team that does not need to show Emmitt as much respect. SAD!!!

B. RESPECT---Dennis Green has too much respect for Emmitt Smith to state Emmitt is the starter this year and then stab the ALL TIME rushing leader in the back and bench him. There is NO WAY Shipp will see that much playing time this year making Shipp's value drop even lower.

C. SUPPORTING CAST---The Cardinals are VERY young at offense (another reason Emmitt will be on the field NOT Shipp to provide experience & leadership) and all teams will be putting 8 in the BOX forcing the inexperienced Josh McCown and Larry Fitzgerald to try to beat them. This is not good for any RB in AZ. In 2003, Emmitt averaged 2.8 yds per carry and Shipp averaged 3.6 yds per carry. 2004 will be worse.

D. DEFENSE---Or lack of. In 2004, Arizona gave up the most points in the NFL, which translates into needing to throw the ball on every play to try to catch up (a big reason why BOLDIn numbers were inflated and why Fitzgerald will have a nice year)...Unfortunately playing RB in AZ means 5 - 10 less carries than other RB's...especially in the 4th QTR.

E. HOT --- It's HOT in AZ, and there has NOT been a STUD RB in AZ because the DEF always sucks and its too hot to give the ball to a RB on 4 or more plays on a drive or 30+ times in a game. After a HOT training camp and HOT games in AUG & SEPT...there is no way for an AZ RB to turn in a 1300 yrd season.

F. 2003 STAT's for SHIPP after Emmitt got hurt:

1. averaged 51.9 yds per game and 11.5 yds receiving

2. as in only 2 games over 100 yds

3. as in 3 fumbles

4. as in for you and me scored as many TD's as Marcell did in 2003...YES O TD's on 228 carries. Again no signs of being the REAL thing.

G---Gee isn't this enough???

To rebutal the Sports Genuis...please do not look at 2003 DEF ranks and assume those will hold to form in 2004....we all know that does not happen in this new age of parity. Carolina goes from Outhouse to Penthouse in one year, St Louis, etc... etc...

To conclude, the only value that Shipp has is if you drafted Emmitt Smith and want Shipp as an emergency back, a team Low on RB's has Emmitt and you want Shipp to trade later to the other owner in case Emitt gets hurt, or if your league gives points for the highest guy being overpaid. Shipp is an overrated RB who should not be drafted until the last 4 rounds as a What the Hell pick.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: RUN HARD,

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Originally posted by RUN HARD:
Here are the simple facts;

A. He is NOT a leader. On a VERY young offensive team, he should be looked upon as one of the leaders...instead he is a project. He has had many opportunities to become a leader and take the starting role but has failed to do so. Playing in AZ, he has had many opportunities to prove he can be a valuable RB, but has not shown the leadership or motivation to do so. Troy Hambrick has able to dethrown Emmitt in BIG D (where Emmitt was VERY popular)...Shipp can't beat out an even older Emmitt to team that does not need to show Emmitt as much respect. SAD!!!

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The reason Hambrick got any time in Dal was because the lack of production from Smith. And the that's the same reason Smith will be on the bench before week 1. Shipp is only 26 years old, and hasn not had much opportunity at all. Smith was brought in simply because he was a big name to help put fans in the seats. D. Green has stated that Shipp was not ready to take on a leadership role yet and that's why he named emmit the starter.
This is proof right from the coaches mouth that Shipp is the better back. His leadership skills will come this year.

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B. RESPECT---Dennis Green has too much respect for Emmitt Smith to state Emmitt is the starter this year and then stab the ALL TIME rushing leader in the back and bench him. There is NO WAY Shipp will see that much playing time this year making Shipp's value drop even lower.

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As stated above, Green is quoted on naming Smith the starter solely based on leadership not respect. The player who will produce more will be the player on the field, and that's Shipp. Respect is nothing but speculation.

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C. SUPPORTING CAST---The Cardinals are VERY young at offense (another reason Emmitt will be on the field NOT Shipp to provide experience & leadership) and all teams will be putting 8 in the BOX forcing the inexperienced Josh McCown and Larry Fitzgerald to try to beat them. This is not good for any RB in AZ. In 2003, Emmitt averaged 2.8 yds per carry and Shipp averaged 3.6 yds per carry. 2004 will be worse.

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More speculation, and incorrect at that. ARI strenght is the passing game. Therefore there will not be 8 in the box and it will open up the running game. Green has ran some of the most succesfull offenses back in Minn. And he did that with guys like Roberth Smith. A two dimensional back, just like Shipp. Emmit is no threat out of the backfield anymore and with his 2.8 ypc last year, that's just not going to cut it. The fact that ARI is a pass first team is just more reason that Shipp will be succesfull as he should easily catch 50+ passes for an addition 300+ yards.

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D. DEFENSE---Or lack of. In 2004, Arizona gave up the most points in the NFL, which translates into needing to throw the ball on every play to try to catch up (a big reason why BOLDIn numbers were inflated and why Fitzgerald will have a nice year)...Unfortunately playing RB in AZ means 5 - 10 less carries than other RB's...especially in the 4th QTR.

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Again, this is just more reason Shipps value goes up. Shipp was 4th on the team is passes caught last year as a part time player.
So what he doesn't get on the ground he'll more than make up for in the air.

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E. HOT --- It's HOT in AZ, and there has NOT been a STUD RB in AZ because the DEF always sucks and its too hot to give the ball to a RB on 4 or more plays on a drive or 30+ times in a game. After a HOT training camp and HOT games in AUG & SEPT...there is no way for an AZ RB to turn in a 1300 yrd season.

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There are many reason for ARI failures beyond heat. At that starts at the top. They've simply just been one of the worst run franchises in the game. But now with they are starting to make changes. With guys like Bouldin, Fitzgerald, Shipp and D. Green running the show things are starting to change.
I think your reaching on your "heat" thing here.

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F. 2003 STAT's for SHIPP after Emmitt got hurt:

1. averaged 51.9 yds per game and 11.5 yds receiving

2. as in only 2 games over 100 yds

3. as in 3 fumbles

4. as in for you and me scored as many TD's as Marcell did in 2003...YES O TD's on 228 carries. Again no signs of being the REAL thing.

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3 fumbles is pretty good for 227 att. And this season ARI should have a more balanced offense. And again, don't forget about recieving yards. Shipp put 1,000 net yards the last two season in limited time.

[/quote]
G---Gee isn't this enough???

To rebutal the Sports Genuis...please do not look at 2003 DEF ranks and assume those will hold to form in 2004....we all know that does not happen in this new age of parity. Carolina goes from Outhouse to Penthouse in one year, St Louis, etc... etc...
[/quote]
Actually Car defense went from #2 in 2002 to #8 last year. It's rare a defense jumps more than a few spots. And none of the teams mentioned have done much to improve on defense. And it's also pretty safe to say the 5 teams in the bottom 20 will not improve to the top 16. The overall defensive rankings they face is week. Some teams may improve while other will get worse. It's all relative in the end. And the bottom line here is they face a soft schedule defensivly.

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To conclude, the only value that Shipp has is if you drafted Emmitt Smith and want Shipp as an emergency back, a team Low on RB's has Emmitt and you want Shipp to trade later to the other owner in case Emitt gets hurt, or if your league gives points for the highest guy being overpaid. Shipp is an overrated RB who should not be drafted until the last 4 rounds as a What the Hell pick.

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Not much to say here but I will say this. Shipp WILL be starting by week 4 and probably week 1.
Emmitt ave 2.8 ypc last season! I do believe that's dead last in the league.

There are just WAY too many questions about this guy to state he is a valuable fantasy player this year and shown NO REASON to take that big of a chance.

Here are all the concerns and questions that make this guy a HIGH RISK and at best a Poor #3 RB on a roster...but worthy of a #4 RB.

Question #1 -- When or will this guy start? I agree he will start...but when. We both agree that Emmitt is the starter because of his leadership...well with a 1st YR QB, a rookie WR, a WR in YR 2, and a new head coach...Emmitt will be starting at least the first 4 games. YOU CANNOT have your #2 fantasy back on the bench for 4 weeks and expect to COMPETE.

Question #2---When Shipp starts his time will be SPLIT with Emmitt. Shipp is NOT going to get enough carriers and unless Emmitt gets hurt...he will have LOWER numbers than last year. Emmitt has FRESH LEGS after a long time off because of injury.

Question #3 --- Finding the END ZONE...How in the world did this guy NEVER score last year. He touched the ball around 250 times and NO TD's. THIS IS A BIG>>>BIG>>>BIG sign he is not a valuable pick.

Question #4 --- AZ DEF sucks. In the 2nd half teams will run the ball and eat the clock forcing less opportunities for the RB on AZ. Plus AZ will need to throw the ball taking more opportunities away.

Question #5 --- Rookie QB and WR -- This equals teams forcing McCown to beat them. If he cannot...there will be 8 in the BOX again killing the AZ RB.

Just too many questions to consider Shipp a valuable prospect,,,let some other sucker draft him. He is only worth a 4th RB spot...in a Keeper League he has much more UPSIDE since there is time...but this YEAR,...NO WAY.

We are starting to split hairs now as league size and scoring systems could make the difference as a #2,3, or 4. So this will be my last response.

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Originally posted by RUN HARD:
There are just WAY too many questions about this guy to state he is a valuable fantasy player this year and shown NO REASON to take that big of a chance.

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He's not a big change as a solid #3 with possible #2 potential. With so many RBBC these days a full time starter can be hard to find.

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Question #1 -- When or will this guy start? I agree he will start...but when. We both agree that Emmitt is the starter because of his leadership...well with a 1st YR QB, a rookie WR, a WR in YR 2, and a new head coach...Emmitt will be starting at least the first 4 games. YOU CANNOT have your #2 fantasy back on the bench for 4 weeks and expect to COMPETE.

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No way does sit for 4 weeks. After pre-season he should have the job, week 2 at the latest. And even he doesn't "start" he'll get the majority of the touches.
Emmit is just horrible and there is no way they can afford to give him the ball. 2.8 ypc is all you need know about Emmitt.

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Question #2---When Shipp starts his time will be SPLIT with Emmitt. Shipp is NOT going to get enough carriers and unless Emmitt gets hurt...he will have LOWER numbers than last year. Emmitt has FRESH LEGS after a long time off because of injury.

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No way can Shipps #s be lower. What your talking about is exactly what happened last year and Shipp still posted over 1,000 yards as a part timer. He'll get more time this year than last because he's a player on the rise. And he's the ONLY back that has any chance to be effective.
Smiths legs went stale about 3-4 years ago, he doesn't even belong in the league anymore. ARI is the ONLY that would even consider him because they need a name to get fans in the seats.

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Question #3 --- Finding the END ZONE...How in the world did this guy NEVER score last year. He touched the ball around 250 times and NO TD's. THIS IS A BIG>>>BIG>>>BIG sign he is not a valuable pick.

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They had 2 rushing TD's all season as a team. You can't blame that all one 1 guy. That's more a problem of O-line and coaching. Both of which are improved. Shipp should see 5-10 TD's this season.

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Question #4 --- AZ DEF sucks. In the 2nd half teams will run the ball and eat the clock forcing less opportunities for the RB on AZ. Plus AZ will need to throw the ball taking more opportunities away.

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The only problem with this statement is that Shipp is one of the main factor in the passing game. He was 4th on receptions on the team last year as a part timer. And based on the last two season should easily catch 50+ passes.

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Question #5 --- Rookie QB and WR -- This equals teams forcing McCown to beat them. If he cannot...there will be 8 in the BOX again killing the AZ RB.

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I just don't see teams putting 8 the box when they have to cover Boulding, Fitzgerald and Shipp. If there are 8 in the box Shipp just becomes another reciever.
Putting 8 in the box just opens up the passing game, ARI strenght.

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Just too many questions to consider Shipp a valuable prospect,,,let some other sucker draft him. He is only worth a 4th RB spot...in a Keeper League he has much more UPSIDE since there is time...but this YEAR,...NO WAY.

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I'll take him as my #3 any day. If you say he's only worthy of a #4 spot that means in a 12 team league, 12x3=36. There are 36 OTHER RBs you would rather have. I would love to see your list of 37 better options.

You claim its the O-Line's fault why theres NO TD's....That problem will still exist. If a RB cannot score double digit TD's...you are in trouble.

Here is a list of RB's that should be taken before Shipp because of less question marks and far better performance in the past (PS---you state he had 1,000 yards last year...I believe it was 800+, but less than 900).


HERE are 45 BETTER RB's to choose over Marcel:


1 Priest Holmes
2 LaDainian Tomlinson
3 Deuce McAllister
4 Ahman Green
5 Clinton Portis
6 Shaun Alexander
7 Edgerrin James
8 Jamal Lewis
9 Fred Taylor
10 Domanick Davis
11 Corey Dillon
12 Kevan Barlow
13 Rudi Johnson
14 Travis Henry
15 Stephen Davis
16 Michael Bennett
17 Tiki Barber
18 Marshall Faulk
19 Kevin Jones
20 Brian Westbrook
21 Curtis Martin
22 Charlie Garner
23 Thomas Jones
24 Duce Staley
25 Chris Brown
26 T.J. Duckett
27 Julius Jones
28 Lee Suggs
29 Warrick Dunn
30 Tyrone Wheatley
31 Travis Minor
32 Anthony Thomas
33 Moe Williams
34 Emmitt Smith
35 Lamont Jordan
36 Antowain Smith
37 Steven Jackson
38 Eddie George
39 DeShaun Foster
40 Garrison Hearst
41 William Green
42 Correll Buckhalter
43 Tatum Bell
44 Onterrio Smith
45 Quentin Griffin

That was going to be my last post but this list is so ridiculous I have to respond.

Sorry for not clarifying, I ment net yards. Here are his stats for the last two seasons.

2003 he had 1,014 net yards (11 starts)
2002 he had 1,247 net yards (6 starts)

So based on your theory that he doesn't start until week 4. That would give him 12 starts, the most he's ever had. So worst case 1,000 NET yards is a lock. Best case with 16 starts he could see 1300 - 1500 yards. And when you rack up that many yards, the TDs will come.

This list is a Joke

Heast/Griffen/Bell. No questions marks here execpt maybe uh.... who's starting? Griffen has a total of 94 NFL carries a 3.7 ypc and 0 TDs, Bell has never seen an NFL ball. The only guarantee here is RBBC. Especially with Shannahan who just loooves to stick with just 1 RB.

Wheatley, That's a joke. Are you expecting him to break his career best year and rush for 650 yards? He'll be lucky to see half the carries with Fargas, Hambrick and Zeroeue on board.

Minor - I guess you have more faith in this guy than the entire state of Florida.

L. Jordan - Ya because THIS is the year he takes over. Sounds like a broken record to me. FYI, C. Martin is still in town and just ran for 1300 yrds last season. Jordan ave 50-80 carries/YEAR, nothing will change.

M. Williams/O. Smith - They couldn't match Shipps stats even with Bennout out for a good chunk of last season. With Bennett healthy Moe averaged 5-8 touches/game and then lost playing tim to O. Smith at the end of the season. With a Healthy Bennett this year neither will see more than a handful of carries each week.

A. Smith/Chris Brown - Again, who's the starter. It was Brown, now it's Smith. Ya no questions marks here.

D. Foster - Another backup RB, don't kid yourself if you think he can beat out S. Davis who rushed for 1400+ yrds last year. Another guy who will see no more than a handful of carries. He's nothing more than insurance if you have Davis.

S. Jackson - love this one, because he'll get more carries than Faulk

E. George - 3.2 ypc and replaced with C. Brown and A. Smith -- enough said.

W. Green - Love this one also. He just about hit 600 yrds last year (another season best). Is backup to Suggs and will be behind arguably the worst O-line in the league.

Buckhalter - He's on the short end of a RBBC so expect 8-12 touches/game here.

A. Thomas/T. Jones - THOMAS JONES!!! are you kidding me? I guess your expecting another career year out of him breaking his own record of a 630 yrd season, while he's splitting time.

And here is the kicker, I'm really going to lose all respect if you actually believe Emmit Smith will outproduce M. Shipp.
The 35 year old ave 2.8 ypc last season on just 90 carries. I know you were assigned this side of the debate but this is just insane. There won't be 1 fantasy league where Emmitt is drafted over Shipp.

That's 17 no brainers from your list who will not be drafted before Shipp putting you at 30 RBs, 7 short of a 4th rounder.

Are you sure don't want to list Ricky Williams on, he might come back.

Lets say he's the 30th best RB...is that really VALUABLE. I rather draft at another position than have a low end #3 RB. His value is definetly NOT in the first 10 Rounds. And I believe that he will not get as much playing time as you think. I am pretty damn sure everyone assumed Shipp would start this year, but because of 2 major reasons...Shipp will be on the bench.

1 Leadership---Smith may start all year since AZ is rebuilding...the knowledge the young WR's and QB learn from him will be worth his SUB 3 yards per carry. Shipp will be lucky to split time.

2. PASS BLOCKING---Shipp is a TERRIBLE pass blocker and Smith is one of the BEST.

For this year....there are too many question marks to say he has value. In a dynasty league...I see your point...but this year because of the inexperience at KEY positions...you need at least one leader. Shipp probably deserves to start, but Green is thinking LONG TERM...

SO Shipp SITS, Smith STARTS
Marcel will play only in PARTS.

Don't draft this fool in the TOP 120
because at best its Running back by Committee.

Leadership is a Quality that can't be taught
It's something that Marcell just aint GOT...

Will Marcel ever posses Leadershipp???? Sure...if you change his First and middle name to LEE D (SHIPP)

It's been real...