We're in the dead zone now - the time between FF and the draft. I was drafted into a monthly poker game by a friend a few months ago. They have structured it so the winner after 10 months goes to Vegas with an entry in to the WSOP. The winner each month gets 6 points, 2nd gets 3 points, and 3rd gets a point. I was a replacement and started in month 2. I won that month, didn't place in the 3rd month, and sat in 2nd place (3 way tie) with 6 points entering last night's game (leader has 7 points).

Info about the game structure. Each game lasts about 3 hours, blinds start at 25/50, and go up every 20 minutes. Each of us starts with 2000 chips.

I understand a lot more now about the game but am obviously still making blunders. These occur when I play the wrong hands, play them in the wrong position, or bet them wrong (not getting enough on good hands or over betting the marginal ones). So the hand I show you can be any of those situations. I realize without sitting at the table that the play could be different but this will give me another look at the hand.

I want to go through a hand from last night and hear how you guys would have played it. I'll do it round by round so you can see it as it unfolded to me. I know little about each of the players but I get the feeling they are playing a little more loose than any book describes - probably similar to online play. I played very conservative the first time and since I won, I received the rep of being extremely conservative (which will hopefully help in the future). On the second hand of the game, I was in the 7th position, got AJs, raised the pot to 200 and everyone folded.

So here it is. A few hands later (blinds still 25-50), I'm in 2nd position and get dealt QQ. 1st guy folds. What's your play - Call, Raise (if so, to what), or Fold?

I'm by no means an expert but I think you'd have to raise here, no? You can't let some guy with 4/6 suited limp in and catch 2 pair on the flop. Raise it high enough so that only an ace with a decent kicker or a pocket pair will call you and then go from there and hope an ace doesn't come on the flop. If he flops a set you should get clues to that by the way he bets after the flop.

If you have the ultra conservative rep, If you just limp in(call), in 2nd position a smart group of players is going to know somethings up

However, with blinds at 25/50 and this early, i'd take a chance at limping (assuming the crop of talent isnt fantastic, and hope for a raise somewhre right after me....then a few more callers and then back to you where you can Reraise quite a bit....the only one that might possibly call you is the original raiser. If he doesnt reraise again, you more than likely have best hand. Unfortunately you are probably in first position after the flop if he calls.

Guess it all depends on how you are perceived, the competition and if you want to make a big splash right for the get go

As for my credibility , Im not an expert... but do play regularly, online and live at casinos and play mid level tourneys 50-200 dollars buy ins

Thanks Ten. I'll let you know what I did after I hear a few more responses.

So, what number would you raise to?

.........and if im raising, it's about 200

Ok, I'll try and help out and give it more of a "generic" answer and see if this helps not just for this hand but for others.

First of all, what you're doing now is THE best way to improve. You should look back at all your hands and figure out what you did wrong and what you could have done better. It literally takes thousands of hands played to really get a feel for what's good and what's not. You should also always have a reason for what you do, so always take your time before you act.

Now, to start with you really need to develop a style that is all your own. I'm sure you've heard of the terms tight, loose, aggressive, and passive. Tight and loose go together and aggressive and passive go together. You can lump most any player into one of 4 groups, tight/agro, tight/passive, loose/agro, loose/passive. As a general rule, tight/agro is a pretty winning style but takes patience. Loose/passive is probably the worst way to play. Loose/agro is what you see on TV. Guys playing any 2 cards and playing them hard whether they hit or don't. It's very difficult to play well but can be very difficult to play against as well.

The thing is, first figure out where you feel most comfortable and where you fit. Also remember that you don't always want to play the same style. So while overall you may be tight/agro, there will be times to be loose and to be passive depending on who you're playing against.

Why am I bringing all this up? Well, the tight/agro play here is to raise preflop. You only play premium hands and you raise them all. The tight/passive play is to limp, but you can always switch to aggressive if someone raises after you.

So, as far as what I would do if I'm in your place? Since you are still learning about the game, I would try to be as consistent as you can as far as your raises. If you're going to raise, I would raise the same amount as you would raise AA and 77 and AK, etc. You need an element of disguise so that you don't tip off your good hands and/or bad hands (invite reraises to scare you off). If the blinds are 25/50, a standard 3-4x raise to 150 is perfect for just about any situation this early, esp. in early position as you are. But, then you need to do this with all hands you raise. If you only raise to 100 when you have hands like AA or KK trying to invite callers, you're going to tip off your hand.

Now, if you're in late position, and there are a couple callers, I would raise significantly more to either take the pot there or at least narrow the field.

At the same time, limping here (just calling without a raise) is fine as well, but you have to be a disciplined player to do that. You have to understand that you are allowing others to join the hand for cheap and you need to be able to lay your hand down if you're behind. This is the biggest problem with limping if you're still kind of new to the game. People fall in love with their hands and can't get rid of them if they look pretty (like QQ) even if they know they are beat. Of course, it takes practice and losing those hands to learn when that is, so you just need to pick your spots.

Bottomline, you really need to try different ways of playing different hands and figure out what is comfortable for YOU. Calling or raising here are both equally good options. But if you see that you continue to play a specific type of hand poorly when you play it a certain way, you need to either figure out why you keep doing it wrong or just avoid that situation.

Sorry for the long post, but hope it helps both for this type of hand and how you approach future hands.

Let me also add that with your particular tourney setup (25/50 blinds, 2000 chips, and 20 min escalations), you don't have too much time to be patient and wait for premium hands. In that kind of format, the more aggressive players are going to win more often. You also can't afford to play a whole lot of hands and miss. Therefore, I would probably keep a fairly tight range of hands I play (but not too tight) and if I decide to play a hand, I would play them all pretty aggressively. Especially with your image being "tight", you could do well if you pick certain spots to really hammer. A good example is when someone in early position (and hopefully someone that raises a lot) raises and gets 1 or 2 callers, that's a great spot for a huge reraise to just try and take pots right there (even if your hand isn't that good). If your image is good enough that people will fold, you can pick up a very decent pot size early on and then you can sit back and wait a little longer than without it.

Just remember, don't ever be afraid to lose, don't ever be afraid of getting caught bluffing, and just trust your gut. I once had it explained that every hand "tells a story" and if the story just doesn't make sense, then it's not true. Good luck and let us know how you do

quote:

Originally posted by gianmarco:
Just remember, don't ever be afraid to lose, don't ever be afraid of getting caught bluffing,

That was (is) my biggest problem right now, I think. I probably place myself in tight-passive and would rather be in tight-aggressive. I have just have a hard time raising instead of calling.

I'll give it a few more minutes and then I'll post the betting.

I raised to 200. Everyone folded to the dealer who called. Small blind also called and BB folded. The pot's now at 700. The flop is:

9 sp, 6 sp, 4 dm

I'm 1st to bet. Check or bet (and how much)?

I think my raise was ok and it looks like most of you agree. My intent was to chase out most players and be left with one. I probably could have achieved the same result with a raise to 150, given their view of me. That may have been better given our blinds (25/50) and starting stack (2000).

This message has been edited. Last edited by: BuckeyeArt,

I won't comment much on the first round seems you've already revealed what you did. I probably would have called to try to trap and reraised if someone made a raise but that's neither here nor there. I think what you did was a good move too.

Now with the flop what it is I didn't think you can check, it's time to be a bit aggressive. The only real thing to worry about here is a flush seems I doubt anyone stayed in with low cards with the raise, so straight is not likely.

I would probably bet at least 200. Depending on the guys I'm playing with it might be more.

In my opinion knowing your opponants helps a lot. I used to play with some guys before Texas Hold 'em was popular and we played many different kinds of poker. I won about 90% of the time because I knew their tendancies and they never bothered figuring out anyone else's.

Good luck.

quote:

Originally posted by ravage:
In my opinion knowing your opponants helps a lot. I used to play with some guys before Texas Hold 'em was popular and we played many different kinds of poker. I won about 90% of the time because I knew their tendancies and they never bothered figuring out anyone else's.

I agree here. The problem is they all know each other. They only have to learn one person and I need to learn 9. Additionally, I think they have me pretty well pegged, whether I like the way I play or not.

I wait until tonight before I post the results of this round. I thought I'd be too busy this afternoon.

Well, if this is near the beginning of the game, you should have around 1700-1800 chips left. You definitely need to lead out here and I would probably make it about a 2/3rd the pot bet, so around 400-450. If someone is on a flush draw and they call there, they aren't getting the right odds so it's ok.

But, this is where it gets tricky. You need to be able to get away from this hand if need be. If you lead out for 400 and someone flat calls, then you can be pretty sure they are either drawing to the flush or they've got you beat (set of 9's, set of 6's, or even AA/KK). But, given the chip stacks you need to make a decision here. If someone reraises you, it's likely all-in and you have to decide if you're ahead. If someone did that, I would actually feel more comfortable and be more likely to call than if someone just flat-called your bet.

If one or both flat-call your bet, then you really have to proceed with caution. If the turn comes and it's a non-spade, I probably check and see what they do. If they move all-in, I probably call (doesn't make sense for a bigger hand than yours), if they make a small bet, I consider folding, to be honest. If a spade hits on the turn, then I also check and you just have to be prepared to give it up if you think they have it.

This is a hand that I don't think it's bad to go broke on given your hand and the pot, but I also think it's something you can still get away from if you are behind without crippling yourself. If you decide to push or make a large bet and you get called and you're behind, then so be it.

But, the worst thing you could probably do with that flop is check it unless you plan on check raising all in. I don't like that play because you get virtually no information and don't know if you're truly ahead or behind.

I like the raise and I'm feeling pretty good after that flop. A continuation bet should help you learn if that small pocket pair flopped a set or if the Ax was suited and spades. Bet enough so that the Ax of spades isn't getting pot odds to chase down his flush, whatever that amount is? If I get reraised I'm folding.

I bet 400. The dealer called. The BB folded. Next card:

K cl

I'm 1st. The pot's now at 1500. I've got about 1600 left. He's at about 1400. Check or bet (and how much)?

To me it seems obvious that the dealer is looking for the flush. I doubt he would have stayed in with your bet if he had only a King in the hole. If he's bluffing he's doing a terrible job by not reraising.

The big thing that could hurt you is if he had pocket As or Ks but in that case you were beat from the word go.

I was thinking you should check but after thinking a bit I think it's time to go for it. I'd double my last bet and go 800. If he's looking for the flush that should either force him out or add money to your pot.

That card only hurts you if he was playing AK of spades...
So you have to continue to "put the story together" as Gian said, and try to get information...
He has position on you, so I'd check and watch his actions, see how much he bets, and then determine whether or not I am ahead.

Sometimes it's not about the cards at all

And for the record....i might have missed this somewhere, but it does matter if you are holding the Q of spades.....although slight, it does change the odds of him holding 2 spades.

quote:

Originally posted by Boomer24:
And for the record....i might have missed this somewhere, but it does matter if you are holding the Q of spades.....although slight, it does change the odds of him holding 2 spades.

I forgot to list that in my hand. I had:

Q sp, Q ht

quote:

Originally posted by ravage:
To me it seems obvious that the dealer is looking for the flush. I doubt he would have stayed in with your bet if he had only a King in the hole. If he's bluffing he's doing a terrible job by not reraising.

The big thing that could hurt you is if he had pocket As or Ks but in that case you were beat from the word go.

I was thinking you should check but after thinking a bit I think it's time to go for it. I'd double my last bet and go 800. If he's looking for the flush that should either force him out or add money to your pot.

I disagree that it's obvious that he's holding the flush draw. It's equally if not more likely that he has a hand that beats Buckeye (99, 66, 44, AA, or KK). If I had one of those hands, I don't raise his flop bet because that would only chase him out. I flat call just like this guy did hoping to get more chips on the turn.

In fact, if he's got AK spades (the hand you're worried about with that turn card), that's the hand that I would expect to raise on the flop. If I'm holding AK spades in the dealer's position and Buckeye bets 400, I push all in 9 times out of 10 (not just call). I really don't think this turn card hurts you at all.

At this point, I think there are 3 plays:

Check--This is a very valid option. He has position on you and you could gain a lot of information from his bet. If he pushes all in, I would be very doubtful that he has a hand that beats you (why would he just call the flop then make a 1600 chip bet). That would look like he's trying to chase you out of a pot. If he makes any intermediate bet, I'd have a strong feeling he has one of the hands you're worried about (44, 66, 99, etc.) and probably fold. If he checks, then you get to make a decision on the river. I'd still proceed cautiously, but would feel better if he checks and would be a little more likely he's chasing.

Bet--Thing is, I would make this a VERY small bet. You cannot make any bet more than 200-300 chips. Making a small bet makes it look like you want him to call and would be scary for him. It also let's you fold without crippling your stack if he raises you. This is actually how I would probably play it if I didn't know the opponent and was using his betting pattern to make a decision. If he just calls, you're back in the same spot, but I at this point I would be much more inclined that you were ahead and he is indeed chasing as this is the spot that a big hand would make a move and raise you.

Move allin -- This is an option, but I don't like it. You don't have enough information that you're ahead (in fact, I would argue that you are behind from his flat-call). But, if you're thinking of making a large bet (like 800) you might as well put all your chips in. I don't like making a large bet that cripples your stack. What if you bet 800 and he moves all in? Are you calling? If you are calling, then go ahead and move it all in to begin with and be the aggressor. If you are folding, then you just wasted more chips than you needed to as you could have garnered the same information with a smaller bet as described above.


Bottomline, if the guy is a tighter, more passive player, I probably make the small bet and see what he does. I want to put a little pressure and see how he responds. If the guy is a little more reckless and aggressive, I check to him. If it's a guy that's willing to bluff and he puts all his chips in, I call instantly. If he's aggressive and makes a smaller, peculiar-looking bet for his style, I fold.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: gianmarco,

quote:

Originally posted by gianmarco:
This is actually how I would probably play it if I didn't know the opponent and was using his betting pattern to make a decision.

I'm now up against the guy that invited me into the group. While I know very little about his poker playing, I know a little about him and will give you all of that to see if that changes anything. He's the guy I went to AC (daughter's dance thing) with earlier in the year. We played 2 midnight games and he made the final table (6th or 7th out of 130) in one and was knocked out early in the other. He's a CFO/accountant of a local company so he has a few brains. He is probably viewed as conservative but sees more flops than me, probably double. Up until now, he's finished 5th, 7th, and 9th (of 10).