Fantasy Insights Fantasy Insights Message Board Fantasy Insights Message Board Free For All SaintFan, Gianmarco, and any other poker player - Critique my play on this hand
Fantasy Insights Message Board Fantasy Insights Message Board Free For All SaintFan, Gianmarco, and any other poker player - Critique my play on this hand|
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On the river I have to say after seeing the dealer's hand Ten is right and even without knowing the hand going all-in was probably the play. At least that would make him consider that you could have had another King but he was in the same shape as you and had to call no matter what. So you still wouldn't have been able to bluff him out.
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This is probably what I need to be able to do better than I do. I am looking backwards and present but not forward. I need to not only figure out what I should bet but also how I should react to his response. I'm always thinking what to do when he responds instead of how I shoul dinterpret his possible responses. I also didn't look at the call the way you did. But, it's exactly how I would have played flopping a set - I would have called and raised on the turn. The call didn't worry me as much as a raise would have but it's easy now to see why it should. I'm only looking at my next 400 bet as a way to lower the pot odds and not using the information he's giving me. |
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Yeh, I pretty much knew I had screwed up at that point and was a little pissed at myself for staying in after the raise. I also didn't like the fact that I was done playing after only 15 minutes. We were both committed at that point. I think you suggested going all in on the turn when the K turned up (instead of my 400 bet). That was probably my last chance to drive him out. If I would have been thinking ahead of how things might play out, maybe I would have thought of that. If at that point I knew I would have called his raise, then the all in bet makes much more sense. I'm guessing he probably would have stayed but having only put in 600 and having 1400 left, it would have made him think. It definitely would have been a better way to play than the way I did from there. |
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I don't know that it was a bad move for him to call pre-flop. A pair is a pair. I probably wouldn't have called but it's not a horrible play. 200 is not real expensive to see a flop, especially if you have a pair even if it's a small one. As for the players, I think you can consider the dealer as a good player seems he played you like a fiddle. As for the rest table talk will tell a little. It doesn't sound like they didn't let in any patsies but some will not be as good as others. You should have some idea by after 3 games about the others. The ones you're having a hard time reading may be the most dangerous. The best I can say is to watch them carefully when you play. |
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Mostly I think you're still trying to find your identity as a player. Once you find it you'l be fine. It's very easy for all of us to tell you what you should have done. We don't have the pressure or scrutiny that you have in the moment. I've missed the same "tell" as you did when he called your bet. I've missed it more than once. So just chalk it up as an expensive lesson.
The one thing I do think that you need to do in this format is to be aggressive. Being aggressive does not mean playing bad hands but playing good ones to win the pot. And win it fairly quickly. Gian and I obviously play differently. He plays looking for "tells" from his opponents(I thought I'd been spelling that word wrong, I finally looked it up.), I play trying to make my opponent read me. Gian's way of playing is just as good, maybe better, than mine. I don't know but for me my way works. In this setup aggressive is the way to go, I believe. Once you have a hand worth betting on go at it hard until the cards on the board tell you to stop. Or your opponent does. Making your opponents think about what you have more than they should gives you an edge in my opinion. With you being known as a "tight" player playing aggressive on a hand like you had makes the other players think, hopefully too much. Of course you have to avoid becoming predictable too. Tough row to hoe. |
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So I guess the next question is when is the first fantasyinsights poker tournament?
I haven't played online in years but I'd be interested in signing up at a site if somebody got this organized. |
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That would be fun, although I can see I'm likely to get slaughtered. Of course, I could just be setting you all up . . . |
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I don't have much time and will be in a meeting all day.
I think everything is summed up, except I have a few things to add in response to your position question. I will say, from what you've said about your opponent, once the flop hits, there is nothing you can do to get him off the hand. I think any large bet is going to scream high pocket pair that is running off the flush and he is correct to be believe that his flopped set is ahead. My tournament ended ugly last night. I'm out of position with 10dJd. I limp, then call a 3x BB raise from the button (a loose, fishy sort of player) and even announced that he was not going like how this hand played out as I called. Flop comes AhKcQs. I check, he bets the pot, I push, he calls. He shows AsKs. He gets running spades to cripple me. I was 77% to win after the flop and even 70% after the spade on the turn. That is just going to happen. The funny thing was that the same flop happened a few hands earlier to two other people, but the flopped nuts held up in that hand. I'm all for an online tourney! |
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That's the other thing that gets me is straights. I just don't see them coming. I've had a couple of hands where someone has hit a straight on the last card, which, while I know that happens, the thing that bothers me most is that I didn't consider it as a possibility. I think I need to run through some kind of checklist in my head until (hopefully) it becomes automatic.
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Here's another question. This is probably the first time they have watched me show my cards and lose without it being a draw on the river that beats me. So, now I've showed them a weakness. My bet and call on the turn likely didn't make sense to them (and a few made comments that they had me on KK) so if they're good, they will try to exploit this demonstration of inexperience. I've confirmed their thinking that I only play good starting hands and that maybe I'm completely unwilling to ever throw them away. What should I look for from them and what might I be able to do to exploit this?
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I think you can use it. But then again I was telling you that you should have used it on that hand when the king popped up. I think in a hand like the one you had where say you had pocket 9s instead of Qs you could use that same stlye of play to get someone to go all-in. The advantage of playing against the same guys every time is that they will fall for that. You now have a rep and you should use it to exploit the other players. The same thing probably wouldn't work in a tourney where you go from table to table and are playing lots of different players. |
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Some good things you said here that show you're thinking on well on the right track of improving. That feeling of "deep down I know I'm beat" is something you really need to trust. We all hate folding winning hands, but it's much better to fold a winning hand than go broke with a losing one. You are right that on the river, it didn't matter. As far as him not calling with 4's, that's a perfectly fine call for him in his position. If I'm at your table, given your image, and you raise preflop, I would fold those 4's if I'm in early or mid position. But being on the button or one of the blinds, I'll call everytime. The reason is, since you are a tight player, the range of hands I can put you on is pretty small. If I do hit my 4, the implied odds that I'm going to get, which is exactly what he got, is absolutely worth the call that early. Now, if it's later on, and the preflop raise is a good portion of his stack, then no, it's not a good call. Overall, though, as SF points out below, the guy was not going to fold his set of 4's no matter how you played the hand, nor should he. In that setup, unless you actually SHOW him 66, 99, or KK on that hand, he would never fold to any bet of yours on any round. |
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This is what I mean by playing position. Not that you need to play necessarily tighter or looser. If you are in early position, you should really only play good hands during the first couple blind structures if you're lucky enough to get one. If you do get one, you need to play it hard. Raise preflop, like the 3-4x. If you see some of these guys will call even larger preflop raises, then make it a little larger. Then, unless there is something very bad about the flop in relation to your hand, play it very hard and aggressive. In later position, I'm not saying to loosen up what you play, but to play your cards more aggressively. If it's folded around to you or if a few people simply limp into the pot, use your image and make a large raise, regardless of what your cards are. If you can pick up 1-2 pots early and build a chip lead, you've bought some extra time for yourself. If you lose, it's not horrible and you can still get them back. A little advice if it's hard for you to do this, especially if you look down and see a crappy hand like 93 and are afraid to raise with it. Only look at one or none of your cards when you "look down". This way, you don't see a bad hand and give away any tells that others might pick up. Just realize that you are playing position and situation and not your cards. If you can learn to do this, you will start to pick up pots early and scare people off. It also mixes up your game a little bit. |
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You didn't really demonstrate inexperience and you didn't play the hand badly. I wouldn't worry too much about what it does for your image. As rav said above, you still don't have your own "identity" and I think you will learn things you do well and things you don't and things you feel comfortable with. It's definitely important to keep your image in mind when playing, but at the same time it should not alter a "correct" play. I would say these are the most important things for you to try and do and let the rest work itself out. 1. Don't be afraid to lose. Playing aggressively in this format is going to help you in the long run. It's ok to bust early if you feel the aggressive play is the right one. Keep in mind, aggressive does not equal reckless. 2. Play position. Realize which situations call for you to try and steal some pots and/or use your image to pick up chips. This is hard to learn, but very important for ANY game you play in ANY format. 3. Try to figure out the story. Try to figure out a range of hands your opponent(s) could be playing and are they playing it similar to how you would if you had the same hand. As you said, that's exactly how you would have played a set (as would I), so that possibility has to be there. If the story doesn't make sense, then it's probably not true. You knew your QQ was behind bc the story didn't make sense for him to be holding less than you. 4. Go with your gut. If all else fails, you're just confused, you don't know what the right play should be, just relax and do what feels right. If it ends up being wrong, just learn from it. But if something is telling you for a reason you don't know to either call a big bet when you don't have much or to fold a decent hand because you just know you're beat, then do it. Again, it's ok to fold winning hands. 5. Can't stress this enough. Avoid CALLING all your chips off as much as possible. If you're going to get your chips in the pot, be the first one to put them in. Situations where your tournament life is at stake should be dictated by you, not by others. The only times you should be CALLING your chips off is if you are either trapping someone because you have a monster or because you have a very good feeling or indication they are bluffing. |
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Anyways, last thing.
So how many of you would be interested in playing an online tournament? If so, would it just be a one time thing, or would you guys like to set something up on a regular basis like a weekly or biweekly tournament. I talked to my friend who can possibly set something up, but would need to have an idea what we're dealing with. I think, unfortunately, we'd have to get at least 15-20 people and would work better as a recurring event. Would also have to figure out a buy-in, something along the lines of $10-$20 would be reasonable, I think. Let me know what you guys think and then I can see what I can do to get it done. |
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Gian, 2 things
1, I would love to get in some tourneys. I actually was looking at full tilt a bit ago, looking at how to set up a custom tournament for FI and 2, Do your fingers hurt? My eyes do... "Sometimes in life you just gotta ask yourself......Is the juice worth the squeeze?" |
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This has been fun reading through, Guys. Thanks.
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lol.....my fingers are fine. Sorry bout the eyes. I was looking at doing it on UltimateBet. But, if you can get one at FT, by all means.... |
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50% of this is a foreign language to me. I play a few tournament card games, but not poker. I'm justing reading it to try to figure out if it applies to your approaches to fantasy football...
---------- "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." - Margaret Mead |
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I have a feeling you'd be a really good poker player, if you had the time for it. |
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